The Dream Lords by Adrian Cole

Awhile back, I picked up The Dream Lords: Lord of Nightmare by Adrian Cole.  I was intrigued by the cover that proclaimed it to be “Fantasy and Horror in the Tradition of Tolkien and Lovecraft”, particularly because neither of those really jibed with the image of barbarians fighting a dinosaur dragon with a single eye-stalk.  When I found out that it was the middle book of a trilogy, I had an “Aha!” moment and put it down, at least until I got the other books.  I was a bit wary at first, as the chapter I’d read was a muddled mess to someone who hadn’t read the previous book, but starting where one was supposed to start quickly rectified any of my initial negative impressions.

Now that I’ve started it from the beginning, I’ve been enjoying the Dream Lords series tremendously. But yeah, Tolkien and Lovecraft?  I’m not really seeing it.  There’s a city named Melkor in the first book, but Dream Lords is more Gardner F. Fox, John Jakes or Jack Vance than either Tolkien or Lovecraft.

Lord of Nightmares

In a nutshell, a young heir to the Dream Lords, the rulers of mankind who can wield powerful suggestions and illusions through sci-magic (psy-magic), learns that not all is as it seems, and he becomes the chosen one champion of those who are under the thumb of the human elites.

Though it has a lot of the tropes and trappings of the New Wave, I actually find Galad Sarian far more likable and, well, heroic, than many of the well-known and iconic heroes of the New Wave.  Unlike Elric of Melnibone, he isn’t morally crippled by his decadent culture, and unlike Corwin of Amber, he’s not some ubermensch narcissist (though he comes from a culture that would like him to see himself as such) who sacrifices his allies by the million with no regard.  Galad sees the wrong in his people’s way of life and wants to change it; when his allies (even the faceless ones) die to advance his cause, it genuinely grieves him.  Where many 70s SFF stories feature cynical heroes in crapsack worlds, Dream Lords has an affable idealistic hero who’d like to make his crapsack world better.

This series suffered from a number of cover-related errors.  The first printing of book 2 had no indication that it was a sequel while the second printing of book 2 indicates that it’s book 3.  Also, the “Fantasy and Horror in the Tradition of Tolkien and Lovecraft” may be a bit of false advertising.  It’s a shame, too, because while it’s certainly not high fantasy or cosmic horror, it’s excellent for what it is.  To be fair, by the third book, the series is described much more accurately as “Heroic fantasy in the tradition of Robert E. Howard.”

The name-dropping of Tolkien in particular raises an eyebrow, especially in the context of the rise of “Tolkienian” fantasy just a few years later in the late 70s.  Largely thanks to Terry Brooks, one sees “Tradition of Tolkien” and thinks high fantasy LotR knock-off.  In a post-Shannanananana literary world, Tolkien-dropping comes with particular implications; I wonder what the implications would’ve been in 1975, however.  Would someone picking this up think “Ah, a story with elves and a Dark Lord and maybe some Cthululz”?  I mean, I looked at it and thought “There’s no way this is what it says it is, but I’m curious anyway”, but was it actually saying something different back then?

Rather than needlessly speculate, I thought “Why not ask Adrian Cole himself?”  Here is what Cole had to say about the covers of his debut trilogy:

Firstly, I never had any say at all on the Zebra paperback covers. Originally volumes 1 and 2 were put out with pretty awful covers. A Plague of Nightmares was taken from a movie poster, I think. Lord of Nightmares was done by sf cover artist, Jack Gaughan, who had done a lot of good stuff, but the one he did for Lord was really poor, or so I thought. I think Zebra must have capitulated, because they reprinted the 2 books with covers by Tom Barber – Plague was a beautiful wraparound depicting the four horsemen (see my website at and Lord was a bit Frazetta/Jeff Jones in style. The third volume, Bane of Nightmares, was issued at the same time as the reprints and also had a Tom Barber cover, and it was very much a Frazetta clone, but very nice.

As for the cover blurbs, well, they’re just as interesting! When I wrote the books (started them at least 5 years before they got published) I had not read any REH, Fox, Jakes or Vance at all. Those great pleasures were to come. The books that influenced the series were: ERB, DUNE (Herbert), LOTR and Dennis Wheatley’s black magic books.

By the time the 3rd volume came out, Zebra were doing very well with their own line of REH books (including several follow-ons by Offutt, Wagner, Smith etc) so they put mine on the REH bandwagon, too.

I was surprised to see the original cover blurb “in the tradition of LOTR and HPL” but I suppose there are bits in the books somewhere. (I was a big HPL fan from years before.) What did amuse me (as I pointed out at a Fantasycon in the UK at the time) was that one of the newer covers said “Adrian Cole’s great adventure”, which made it sound autobiographical!

In 1975 the Tolkien revival was well under way (as was the ERB revival) and the REH one was just about getting going – so I think that’s why they moved over to the REH blurb with the reprints.

You may also notice that they got the volume no. wrong on volume 2 (the reprint) and put volume 3! Couldn’t have helped sales.

I have to admit, I did read the first SHANNARA book and thought it was an appalling rip-off of Tolkien. I was amazed that the author got away with it. Ironically, last night, here in England, we had the first tv episode of the Shannara Chronicles. I watched out of curiosity. Low grade stuff – won’t be watching any more!

For one thing, this is more anecdotal confirmation that many Sci-fi writers had little to no control over their covers.  I suspect that Zebra included the bit about Tolkien and Lovecraft to capitalize on the booms in popularity both authors were enjoying.  Ultimately, I think this did The Dream Lords a disservice, though perhaps not so much as omitting then misprinting the volume number on Lord of Nightmares.

I do find it interesting that while I’d compared Dream Lords in my mind to Fox or Jakes, Cole hadn’t yet read those himself; what that says to me is that the Burroughsian branch of SFF produces similar leaves such that even outside the influence of other writers in the tradition of Burroughs there is a sense of unity and both stylistic and thematic harmony among his acolytes.  While I’m a fan of both Tolkien and Lovecraft, their styles don’t lend themselves well to imitation, but Burroughs… Man, Burroughs!

Also this addresses in part why Galad is much more likable than many New Wave fantasy heroes; while heroes from the New Wave were deconstructing established tropes of heroic fantasy, Galad feels very much like an homage to the ‘good guy’ heroes of pulp fantasy that writers like Moorcock and Zelazny sought to undermine.  I can certainly see the influence that Dune would’ve had on the setting and culture, particularly the characterizations of the Dream Lords and the villains, as well as the Wheatley for the occult symbolism in places, but it really is the Burroughsian heroic archetype and the themes which accompany it that dominate what I’ve read.

What am I trying to say with all of this?  More than anything, I want to say “If you find the Dream Lords books, get them and read them”, “If you find Lord of Nightmares, don’t try to read it first; it may not say volume/book 2, but it is totally volume/book 2”, “Tolkienian and Lovecraftian are maybe not the best descriptors for this series, but that is not a bad thing”, and lastly “If you find the Dream Lords books, get them and read them”.

More recently, Cole actually HAS been writing some Lovecraftian tales in his award winning Nick Nightmare series.  Misha Burnette’s upcoming novelette A Hill of Stars in Cirsova Issue #1 has led me to rethink my embargo on contemporary Lovecraft tales, so I might stick Nick on my reading list.  In the meantime, I’ll be keeping an eye out for more of Cole’s Sword & Sorcery stuff.

Interview with Karl Gallagher, Author of Torchship

I recently tore myself away from the pulps and my own Appendix N reading to check out Torchship by Karl Gallagher. The book has come out to rave reviews, including Winchell Chung’s Atomic Rockets Seal of Approval with “a platinum star with diamond clusters”. Personally, I was blown away and could barely put it down. This book had everything from space battles with rogue AI to crazed big game hunters to buried space treasure!

Torchship is an impressive book by an incredible author. I was absolutely thrilled to have Karl Gallagher give me some of his time over the last weeks to answer some of the burning questions I’ve had ever since finishing.

Thank you, Karl!

Alex: To an unscientific fellow like myself, I’d say “Karl Gallagher is a guy who makes spaceships for a living”. A gross oversimplification, I know, so why not tell us a little about your background in aeronautics engineering?

Karl: That ought to be “used to make spaceships for a living.” These days I’m working on fighter planes.

Read More at Castalia House

Geordie Tait Interview Transcribed – Pt 5

Disclaimer: I am offering, without commentary, the transcript of the Geordie Tait interview as a service to the Gamergate community and is not intended for commercial use.  As it is rather long, I will be posting it in installments.  I have faithfully transcribed the conversation to the best of my abilities and will attempt to complete the transcription so that the information is available in a timely manner.  The opinions and statements made by individuals within reflect their own opinions and ideas and are not reflective of Cirsova or any other individuals.  The transcription begins with Geordie Tait’s arrival on the stream and will end shortly after his departure.  The full audio interview can be found here.

KOP:Let’s kind of go into your article a little bit, your second article, where you kind of…

GT: Sure.

KOP: …went into this.  Now, I’m going to read something that you said, and, um, we’re going to go into this.  “I don’t care if Anita Sarkeesian’s kickstarter was called ‘Help me fund my kickstarter, Kill a Man, Inc., P.S. I Hate Testosterone’, don’t you understand it doesn’t matter?”  So, let me ask you this: does it really not matter?  That if Sarkeesian were to put in there “Kill all men”, it… you’d still fund it because it’s Anita Sarkeesian, and not…

GT: I think it’s a fucking joke that you guys deflect and have the intellectual dishonesty…

KOP: I didn’t write it.

GT: complain…

KOP: I didn’t write it.  You wrote.  And no one’s deflecting.  This is exactly your words, so I’m just asking…

GT: Why are you interrupting me?  I wasn’t even talking about that.

KOP: Oh, okay, I’m sorry.

GT: You were interrupting me on the basis of something that you expect me to say, and I was not going to say it.

KOP: Oh, well, I thought you were answering my question.

GT: I am answering your question.  I am telling you that the point of that sentence is it’s a satire of the behavior of gamergate in that they complain about manhating and so-on, and I’m saying it doesn’t matter.  I mean, she could just say “I hate men, Fund Me” and get $100k, and I wouldn’t care.  Good.

KOP: I’m sorry, I have to interject.  Doesn’t that make no sense though?  If you’re for women and saving women, why would it not matter since, as you said before, Anita Sarkeesian is of prime importance to this and it made you even say “wow” yourself, “look at all the good they’re doing”.  If she was talking about genociding all men, “I hate testosterone”, as you said in a satire way, it wouldn’t matter.  Wouldn’t that kind of be contradictory to what she wants?  That’d be like the complete opposite of what it is.

GT: No, let me explain.  Let me try to explain.  There was a time when I believe there was like some gerrymandering being done or like an early voting law was removed, and it was done to stick it to the Democrats.  I forget exactly where it was, but it happened in the United State and was implemented by some Colonel Sanders looking fuck who went on the Daily Show and got fired (unintelligible) for it.  So, the question was asked in that interview, “how many people used to vote twice, the thing that you’re trying to prevent?” and the answer was one or two.  And I think that basically gamergate’s complaints about anything amount to the one or two people voting twice.  It’s enough voter fraud to swing zero elections, it does not matter.  The Much more important thing is the, y’know, keeping that early voting law so that minorities are able to come out to the polls, or in the case of this giving women a chance to do the things that are important to them and like finally break into the industry and the various narrative in a way that is healthier for people to experience and doesn’t reinforce all these negative things that, y’know…

KOP: Okay.  Alright.  Fair enough.  A lot of people want to explain NotYourShield to you, and I have a 6 minute video here that if you want to watch it on my stream, and we’ll be quiet so you can watch it, so that maybe you can get a… and then we want to hear your opinion after seeing it.  Is that okay?

GT: You want me to watch the whole thing on the stream?  Alright, if you say so.

KOP: No, I’m asking you, is that okay?  I’m not telling you.

GT: It’s okay with me.  I’m just… if it’s okay with you.

KOP: Yeah, so we’re gonna watch 6 minutes 14 seconds.  It’s basically giving a voice to the voiceless, the NotYourShield Project.  It’s just explaining in detail what that is and then we’ll go on from there, just to show you.

GT: Sounds good.

KOP: So, we’re watching this.

Sargon: Can you send me a link to this, Pol? Cuz I’m going to have to…

KOP: Yeah.

Sargon: Can’t watch it on the stream.

KOP: No problem, it’s going to be right here in chat, so we’ll watch this and then, afterwards, you and Sargon can go on to discuss more onto the topic.

KOP: Okay.  Wrap up.  You’re still catching up?

GT: I, uh, think it’s done.

Kop: Okay.

Sargon: Yeah, I watched it.

KOP: Okay, after seeing that, I want to reask you the same question again, do you believe that the gamergate community, after seeing that, deserve to be pushed in gas chambers, as you put it?  Do you think that they’re as evil as you put it?

GT: Yeah, they’re evil.

KOP: After seeing that?  Did any of that come off as very evil or inherently bad?

GT: It came off as thinking that corruption in video game journalism… – let me just stop and say who fucking gives a shit? – is more important the plight of half the fucking world’s population.

Sargon: We give a shit, what are you talking about?

GT: I don’t care if you give a shit.  You shouldn’t.  You should sure care about something that’s actually important.

KOP: This is important to us, cuz it’s our hobby.  It’s what we enjoy.  Some people, as you saw on there, it’s more than just a hobby, it’s their livelihood.

GT: It’s my livelihood too.

KOP: But then why should we… you not care as much as we not care?  Isn’t that kind of contradictory?

GT: I believe, I think that the so called ‘corruption’ in video game journalism is way overblown.  Uh…

KOP: How so?

GT: I mean, I can’t even imagine the amount of corruption there would have be in video game journalism for it to be more serious than the current problems, as they’re called, with social justice in the gaming industry.  And, by the way, Social Justice Warrior is an utterly, unbelievably stupid term that denotes, just…

KOP: Okay.

Sargon: Hang on, let him finish, Pol.

GT: I don’t know what word I’m looking for, hatred, I guess, for, for, uh, people who believe in social justice, which is far more important than fucking, y’know, hunting down examples of video game journalism ethical breaches.  It’s just ridiculous.

KOP: Well, let’s talk about that for a minute

GT: Yep, go ahead.

KOP: … talk about Matti Leshem and the game jam that was ruined by that.  Or we can skip on to, let’s say, Ubi-soft giving Nexus 7 tablets to journalists to write better reviews, or we can talk about TB’s interview – Total Biscuit, the one we’re discussing – uh,

GT: Total Biscuit is a fuck, too.

KOP: …where he talked about being given… somebody trying to give him a $3000 laptop just to play their game included on their stream and get a good review.  We can talk about how game journalists got PS3s just to play a game.

GT: You’re preaching to the choir.  I believe all of that is wrong.

KOP: Okay, so, how is that not corruption in video games journalism.

GT: It is, it is, but I don’t care, relative to (unintelligible) happening.

Sargon: Right, okay then, can we talk about something you do care about then?  I’m very curious about, um, misogyny

GT: Yep.

Sargon: Could… I mean, could you define it for me?  What do you think misogyny is?

GT: What do I think misogyny is?  Well, it mostly takes the form, uh… I would say, of contempt… Most of it is just not caring about what is an obvious problem.  At least in gamergate.  But there’s also just a lot of really repugnant comments and like stupidity.  You know, prejudice against women.  That’s what I would say misogyny is.

Sargon: Right, cuz the definition everyone else is working to is, um, the hatred of women by virtue of them being women.  That’s… That’s the definition that everyone else works on, so when you say someone’s a misogynist, they’re like “well, there are women that I don’t hate”.  So, when you say that…

GT: Well, I’m sure that there’s plenty of women (unintelligible).

Sargon:…they’re a misognynist, it doesn’t make any sense to them.

GT: I mean, it’s possible to be a misogynist and have women that you don’t hate.

Sargon: Sorry, say that again.

GT: It’s possible to be a misogynist and have women that you don’t hate.

Sargon: I don’t think that’s true.

GT: It is obviously true.

Sargon: Why is it obviously true?

GT: (unintelligible).  Okay, I’ll tell you how it’s true: you have contempt for women who are trying to, you know, rise up from their position of being chattel and marginalized and, you know, not allowed into the best spots in industries and underpaid.  Having, you know, all of that stuff.  So, you don’t like that, but you’re totally fine with your, you know,  meek and cowed wife who you driven down into the ground over the course of 8 to 10 years, and you’re fine with, you know, the, uh, the women on twitter who says, you know, “I don’t believe in feminism”, uh, “I’m fine by myself”, and like “I have my own definition of feminism” and “I don’t care about this other thing and I don’t hate men and I don’t hate anything that’s going on” and, so of course you’re fine with that person, even though you’re a misogynist, cuz she’s tapdancing on top of the fucking dugout.  So…

Sargon: But hang on.  Okay, so, you’re saying that I like some women if they’re traditional women, traditionalist women, right?

GT: Yeah, but this is not…  This is just one example.

Sargon: I’m really just trying to understand what you’re trying to tell me, because you’re not working off the standard definitions that everyone else uses, so I really am trying to give what you’re saying credence.  Like, so, there are some women that I like because of the way they act, and there are some women that I don’t like because of the way they act.

GT: Yep.

Sargon: Is that… And so that’s what makes me a misogynist.

GT: Uh.  That isn’t what makes a misogynist.

Sargon: That’s part of, sorry, that’s why you’re calling me a misogynist: because there are some women I don’t like.

GT: That’s one way a misogynist could be.  They could also hate all women, as you say, or they could hate one woman because she’s a woman, like every other woman still be a fucking misogynist.  (unintelligible)

Sargon: What if I don’t like certain women because of the things they do?

GT: Depends what they do.

Sargon: Well, okay, maybe, um, uh, I don’t know, maybe they’re trying to defame… deface an Argentinian cathedral?

GT: Okay, are they doing that because they’re women?

Sargon: Yeah.

GT: So, you think that they’re doing that because they’re women?

Sargon: No, that’s not true, they’re doing it because they’re feminists.

GT: Oh, you think they’re doing it because they’re feminist?  That’s not the same as…

Sargon: Oh, I know they were, that’s what they were saying.

KOP: Hold on, Geordie, he’s, hold on.  I don’t think Geordie knows.  Geordie, he’s referring to a recent, not too long, a couple months ago, there was a radical feminist group, the – I can’t remember the name off the top of my head, I know, Sargon, you know what I’m  talking about – in Argentina and they went on a riot against a church where there was a priest, a couple priests, while they rioted and destroyed everything because they hated men.

Sargon: Yeah, so I don’t personally, very… like those women very much, because they’re trying to deface someone else’s property, and because the people they were attacking hadn’t done anything to them.

GT: They hadn’t?

Sargon: No, not at all.  Not as far as we know, anyway.  I would find it hard to believe a small group of very religious men had done anything to this 7 or 8 thousand strong mob of feminists.

GT: I actually disagree that someone who’s hyperreligious is less likely to have done something to women.

Sargon:  It doesn’t matter if they’re likely or not, it’s just that we have no evidence to suggest they did anything.  So…

GT: It sounds like there hasn’t been much information come out, but like if they didn’t have a reason to do that, then fine, you know, they should’ve expressed themselves in a different way.  But I think they’re justified in just generally being mad at men.

Sargon: Okay.  But if I say I don’t like those women because of what they did, am I misogynist?

GT: That’s a tough question. You’re giving me a real corner case here.  It… Y’know…

Sargon: I’m just trying to understand.

GT: I would have to really examine.  I would have to really examine those women and what they did and why.  And I would have to know your background, like, do… are you a religious person?  How do you treat other women in your life? And you know, stuff like that.  And so, you know, I would need more information.

Sargon: Okay. Um, okay, so, it’s possible to be a misogynist who doesn’t hate all women though.  There can be some women I like.

GT: Yes.  Yep.

Sargon: Cuz, it, the way that it sounds like your describing misogyny is anti-feminism.

GT: Not quite. I mean… But it takes the form of, y’know, anti-, I don’t know what I would call it.  Women who are… uh, standing up for themselves in various ways?  So… You know, sometimes that’s the case and sometimes it’s just there’s no reason for it and you dislike a very meek and cowed woman just for her nature of being a, y’know, very, sl…, just, “pathetic”, you would think, “look at her with her head hung.”  You know, meek and scared when I raise my hand, I don’t like that, so I don’t respect that, so I don’t like that woman.

Sargon: I don’t ever raise my hand to women, man.

GT: Of course, sorry, I’m not talking about you, I’m talking about a hypothetical other misogynist.

Sargon: Right, okay, so you… you kinda seem to be talking about like a guy from the 50s or something.

GT: What? No.

Sargon: You just said like “When I raise my hand to her she’s all meek and stuff” and I’m  just thinking in my own life experience and I don’t think I’ve ever met a meek woman.  Um, most of them are quite outspoken, do you not find?  I mean, I don’t know what it’s like in San Francisco.

GT: Um, I mean, I think that I’ve met women who are easy to manipulate and, y’know, I could’ve taken advantage of easily.  And of course I’ve met women who are just real firebrands, that would never be possible.  Um, I mean, I don’t know.

KOP: Let me ask you this.  Do you think that all men are inherently bad?

GT: No.

KOP: Okay.  Do you think that the majority of men are very bad.

GT: I wouldn’t say very bad, but I would say that the majority of men are shaped by society to contribute to the… you know, the reinforcement of the way things are and make it hard for… to change these circumstances, as a result.  So they unconsciously do it almost.

Sargon: Okay, I have question.

GT: Go ahead.

Sargon: Okay, so like, how exactly, and you don’t have to give me like the comprehensive description of how society does it, but a few examples would be good, if you don’t mind.

GT: Okay.  Let me try and think of a few. There’s so many.  Um.  Alright.  Men.  Like.  Something as simple as sports culture being what it is.  There’s a lot of attention paid to male sports culture, where women’s sports are not really followed closely, with the exception of tennis, I guess.   But otherwise, the male leagues and competitions are much more important, and that suddenly rubs off on everyone.  Same thing with the military, I’m sure that, uh, women are allowed in the military, but I’m sure that they are marginalized in there. I mean, you can’t tell me that they’re not.   They’re not.

KOP: Well actually, they’re kinda not, not to the extent, at least not in America.  There’s actually some things going on with that, but um.  I have to ask you a question that a lot of people want to know.  The question that a lot of people were asking on is… are there any women… Is there a woman that you’ve ever disliked?

GT: Me?

KOP: Yes.

GT: Ann Coulter.  And like, a bunch of others that are similar to that.  Michelle Bachmann.

KOP: Okay, so according to your own definition, that would make you a misogynist, correct?

GT: No.

KOP: How so?

GT: I don’t dislike them because they’re women.  I dislike them because of their stupid political views.

Sargon: Okay.  I take it they’re right wing, are they?

GT: Yeah, they’re really right wing.  I also dislike every woman who is in gamergate.  Because of their stupid views, essentially.  So, those are other women I don’t like.

KOP: Okay, alright, that’s all I wanted to hear.  Alright, go ahead, continue on.

Sargon: Yeah, yeah, okay.  Could you tell me exactly why you like the right-wing so much?

GT: Because it’s wrong.

Sargon: Because it’s what, sorry?

GT: Wrong.

Sargon: Why’s it wrong?  What’s it doing that’s wrong?

GT: Uh.  I don’t…  I can’t even go down the whole list of why the right wing is wrong.

Sargon:  Any examples are good.  Honestly, right (unintelligible).

GT: How about everything that comes out… Have you ever heard Rush Limbaugh talk?

Sargon: Yeah, he’s a bit mental, isn’t he?

GT: Yeah, anything that comes out of his mouth is an example of the right wing being wrong and there are plenty of people who believe those things.

KOP: I have to stop and interject here as the moderator; that’s very blanket statement and you can’t just say what Rush Limbaugh says is the word of god in the sense of right-wingers, or the word of all republicans or right-wingers in general.

GT: Alright, okay, so are they the people who are trying to shut down Planned Parenthood?  If yes, then they are wrong, and evil.  So, yes, they’re evil and wrong.

Sargon: So… Okay… I’m curious about the comment ‘evil’.  Why do you think they’re evil?

GT: Because I’m tired of half-measures in terms of the speech that I use.  It is evil to shut down Planned Parenthood.  You are crushing the lives of women who need those services.  And, you know, it’s as simple as that, and I’m not afraid to say so.  And I’m sorry if I’m offending people, but…

Sargon: No, no, you’re not.  You’re not offending me; I’m actually in favor of women to be able to have access to abortion.  Um, so.  I don’t agree with the Republicans on that issue, but I wouldn’t say that they were evil for holding that position.

GT: I would.

KOP: Uh…

Sargon: I mean, they’re not murdering women, are they?

GT: Okay.  What about in the case of a woman who, woman who because she doesn’t have access to safe abortion, y’know, dies as a result of some sort of extra hospitable – extra hospital – attempt to get rid of her baby (unintelligible)

Sargon: I can only speak for my own country, but in Britain, if the woman who’s pregnant is in danger of losing her life due to her pregnancy, her pregnancy will be terminated to save her life.  Don’t they do that in America?

GT: That’s also true in America, but in order to facilitate those circumstances there have been plenty of occasions where women try to put their lives in danger and end up killing themselves, just as one example.  I mean, what.  Just let them have the services.  It’s just.  It’s just puritanism, it’s fucking bullshit.

Sargon: I-I…

KOP: Here, I want to interject here, guys, for just a minute, um, just to get a little back on topic for a moment with gamergate.  Let me ask you this, Geordie, if say with your views, right now…

GT: Yep.

KOP: Okay, if your parents, let’s say your mom and your dad, or your brother your sister, your family was inherently… gamergate.  Let’s just for the instance of hypothetically, they were pro-gamergate.

GT: Yep.

KOP: Would you cut them out of your life or would you remove…

GT: Yes.

KOP: You would cut your family out of your life.

GT: Well, my father’s dead.

KOP: Nothing personal, this is hypothetical.  I’m saying the people who are alive and in your family now, if they announced to you “I don’t agree with you”, I’m pro gamergate, would you cut them out of your life?

GT: I would not talk to them.

Sargon: Why, just out of interest?

GT: Okay, what you don’t seem to understand is that I believe this is an intensely moral issue.  So, them believing in gamergate is akin to them believing that you can stone women to death.  Because (unintelligible) the Koran.

Sargon: But that’s really… that’s not what gamergate’s advocating for, though.

GT: No, that’s my… that’s my judgment, though.  Like, you believe that’s not what it’s advocating and I believe that is what it’s advocating.

KOP: Okay, fair enough on that, Geordie.  Would you say that… Would you say… would you try…  Let me ask you this, Geordie.  You kept saying in your writings that people should listen to you to know the truth and join, in a sense, come to your side, or come to the anti-gamergate side, to understand better of what gamergate is.  Would you say that you would want to bring new people into the ideology that gamergate is inherently evil and they need to be genocided?

GT: Yes.  Well, I don’t know.  That genocide thing, everyone got really upset about that.

KOP: But just in general, you would want to bring them to your ideology on what gamergate is, that they are inherently evil, correct?

GT: That, okay.  Yes.  The genocide thing?  All I’m trying to say is that, like, I’ve gotta have the courage of my convictions.  I’m not going to half-ass it.  Because I believe gamergate is evil, because I believe it is an intensely moral issue, and they are perpetrating, y’know, moral wrongness upon a group that needs support, I have to say “Yes, the world would be better off without these people”…

KOP: Yes, fair enough.

GT: …and I happen to say “Stick them in the gas chamber”.

KOP: Okay.

Sargon: Yeah, but isn’t that what the German said about… the Nazis said about the Jews, though?  They (unintelligible)

GT: I mean, they were wrong about the Jews.

Sargon: Yeah, but you’re not considering that you might be wrong about gamergate, either.

GT: I’m not.

KOP: So…

Sargon: That’s my point, though, that’s exactly my point, I mean.  I think…

GT: I’m not wrong

Sargon: …that Hitler probably would’ve said the same thing about the Jews.

GT: Yeah, he would’ve been wrong, and I’m not.

KOP: Okay, well, Geordie, with that being said, though, you would say that you would be bringing… and you would want people to listen to you so that you would bring people to the anti-gamergate side to understand why gamergate is inherently evil in your vision.

GT: I guess, yeah.

KOP: Okay, yeah.  That’s all I… Okay, alright, um.

Sargon: Okay, um…

KOP: Go ahead, Sargon.

Sargon: I’m kind of hung up on the, um, the… the… you’re not wrong.  How do you know that?

GT: I mean, it’s kind of ridiculous to ask someone how they know they’re not wrong, I mean everyone inherently believes that they’re not wrong if they believe strongly about something.  It’s like asking me “do you know you’re not wrong that women should have access to abortions?”  Yes, I fucking know that.

Sargon: Yeah, but no one in gamergate is asking for women to lose their right to abortions.

GT: By several degrees of separation and many years of time, yes they are.

Sargon: Right, go on and explain how gamergate is advocating anti-abortion.

GT: They are generally saying that women’s rights and social justice are to be ridiculed and are not important, let’s talk about, y’know, ethics in journalism?  Who gives a shit?  And because of that attitude, if they become more successful, if more people join gamergate, the entire world is going to be filled with these dickheads, so yes, I want them gone.  And like their staying will just hinder and hamstring women and their various rights and privileges.  Yes, it won’t… it’ll be hard… y’know…  It’s hard to see the direct…

Sargon: How?

Kop: Hold on, Sargon.  So with that mindset, would you say that there’s no life outside the context of the group gamergate?

GT: I’m sorry, I don’t understand you.

KOP: with what you had to say, would you say then that you feel that there is no life outside the context of the group gamergate?

GT: No, I wouldn’t say that.  I’m not sure what brought you to that.

KOP: What I’m asking is is that if you’re pro-gamergate, is there any… do you feel there is no life outside of that context, that you are pro-gamergate?

Sargon: If you were pro-gamergate.

KOP: If you’re pro-gamergate, is…  would you feel there is no life outside the context of that group? Or in your aspect , would you feel, as anti-gamergate side, that there is no life outside the context of anti-gamergate?  If you are inherently pro-gamergate, then you must die?

GT: Um, I think that the world would be better without you, but it’s not gamergate that I believe is a, y’know, all encompassing thing.  I believe that it is women and their rights and their plight that is the all encompassing thing

KOP: alright, let’s get back on topic here.  I want to address something else we had a conversation with, more toward the gamergate side and that was radical feminism and Cultural Marxism.  Now, we did talk about this when we were prepping earlier.

GT: a little bit, yeah.  You have a much better understanding of it than I do, I think, though.

KOP: And I would like to get into that discussion.  Now, I asked you the question, I’m going to ask it here for both of you guys to discuss.  Would you say that radical feminism is just another form of cultural Marxism, they just replaced class with gender.

GT: Do you know what he’s talking about?  I have trouble answering that question.

Sargon: Yeah, do you mind if I go back to the line of inquiry I had, Pol?

KOP: If you want to wrap that up, go ahead.

Sargon: I just want to explore it a bit more, because I don’t really understand how you see the world, Geordie.  So, I…  Right.  So, do you think that the only way to be pro-human rights is to be involved in social justice?

GT: Um…. That’s an interesting question.  I think that… What’s the bigger basket there?  Human rights or social justice?  Which one fits inside the other, do you think?

Sargon: Um.  I don’t think that they necessarily fit inside each other.

GT: Oh, I do, I do, I think that it’s…  I think it’s… Human rights probably fits inside social justice, social justice is the all encompassing thing.

Sargon: Right, okay.  So.  Right, okay.  So, but do you think that it’s possible to be in favor of human rights without being part of social justice, without believing what you believe?

GT: You see this stupid picture that’s scrolling up through the chat?  This is exactly what I’d say that 80-90% of gamergate is like.  But anyway…

Sargon: That’s not what I asked, though.

GT: Sorry, I didn’t answer your question, can you repeat it?

Sargon: Yeah, yeah, do you think that it’s possible to be in favor of human rights for men and women and not be in favor of this sort of social justice that you believe in?

GT: No, I don’t think that’s possible.  There’s too much overlap.

Sargon: So, you think it’s mutually exclusive.  You can either be…

GT: No, you’re saying that.

Sargon: No, no, no, let me finish…

GT: Okay, go ahead, sorry.

Sargon: you can either be… you can either be for social justice, as you describe it, or you are against human rights?

GT: Uh, yes.  I think that’s accurate.

Sargon: Right, okay.  Um.  Is there any chance you’re wrong?

GT: No.

Sargon: Right.  Um.  Okay.  Uh, sorry, yeah, Pol, we can go to the next subject now, thanks.

GT: That’s like asking me if punching someone in the face is wrong.  I don’t know how you think I can be wrong.

KOP: Okay.

Sargon: Well, I think that everyone could be wrong about everything.

GT: No.

Sargon: Okay, okay, thanks.  Pol, your question.

KOP: So the next topic, the next question was, do you think that radical feminism, uh, is basically cultural Marxism in a nutshell.

GT: I mean, can I, uh… interrupt you.  You see this picture scrolling up through the chat?  “Insulting men is okay, insulting women is sexist”.

KOP: uh, no, I don’t see it.

GT: It’s actually one of the moderators.

KOP: Yeah, I see it.

GT: That’s actually true.

KOP: Okay.

GT: Even though he’s trying to make a joke, it’s actually, yes, that’s the case.

Sargon: Sorry, hang on, say that again, I missed the picture.  What was the?

GT: Insulting men is okay, insulting women is sexist.  Which is intended as…

Sargon: and you think that that’s legitimately…

GT: a criticism of feminism.  It’s actually true, that statement.

Sargon: Right… how do you know that?

GT: I just know it, because men are empowered.  And so insulting them rolls off their back, water off of a duck.  Insulting women who are underpowered IS in fact sexist, because it’s based on their sex, y’know, something that is cruel, because they need to be lifted up.  They don’t need to be further downtrodden.

Sargon: I mean, there’s something you’ve said there that’s true.  If you insult women for being women, then that would be sexist.  But what if I insult a woman because she did something stupid?

GT: Um.  I mean, obviously, I’d need more information.

Sargon: Well, okay…

GT: Let’s say that you’re completely telling the truth for sake of argument.  Obviously I’d need more information.  Then no, that’s not sexist.

Sargon: Do you think I’m lying to you at all in this?

GT: Uh, we’re just talking about a hypothetical case of a hypothetical man insulting a hypothetical woman because of… she did something stupid.  That is not inherently sexist, we both agree.

Sargon: Right, okay, so why is the, um, that meme wrong then.  Or right, even.

GT: It’s right.

Sargon: The fact that they’re trying to make a joke of that is wrong, isn’t it?

GT: Uh, they’ve failed, I think to make a joke of it, and it’s a stupid… it’s a stupid meme, but it’s right, and the reason that it’s right is because men are empowered.  Men are superman, they’re Kal’el.  Shit bounces off men, because the way society has been built for a plethora of reasons.

Sargon: Does it bounce off you?

GT: Yes.  Haven’t you been able to see that?

Sargon:  I… I wouldn’t dare make that judgment.

GT: It does.  Look at this chat; I’ve been reading the whole thing, and I still don’t give a fuck.

Sargon: Okay.  But do you not think there are women who have you opinion on that, like, you know “people can insult me and I don’t give a fuck”?

GT: Yeah, that’s their choice, but sure.  But that doesn’t mean that they should say that other women should be like that too.  You know, which is what the NotYourShield people essentially are saying.

KOP:  Isn’t that what you said as well, though, I mean contrary to belief, “If you don’t agree, you all should just listen to me, because you’re all wrong”?  I mean, you kind of did say that.

GT: Well, I mean, I happen to believe that they’re wrong, so I’m saying that.

Sargon: Aren’t you worried about the amount that use the word ‘believe’?

GT: It’s just a synonym for “Know” or “have discovered”.

Sargon: Okay. Okay.

GT: I’m not really worried about it.

Sargon: It’s just you couch a lot of things in what, from an outside perspective, could be religious terminology, so I want to get more to the sort of factual information.  So, I mean, I’m having trouble processing some of the things you say.  But… Do you think it’s your job to protect women?

GT: I’ve chosen to do that.  As best I can.

Sargon: You don’t think women can protect themselves?

GT: I believe that they can.

Sargon: So, why are you protecting them?

GT: I mean, my best friend can protect himself, but if he were in danger, I would protect him.  I don’t think It would be insulting to him.  So this is the same situation, basically.

Sargon: You don’t think it takes away his agency, though?

GT: No.

Sargon: Right, okay.

KOP: The next question is here, Geordie, you talked about gamergate being inherently evil.  Let’s use me for an example here.

GT: Okay.

KOP:Uh, my stream here, if you subscribe or if you donate, all the money goes straight to charity…

GT: I did donate.  I gave you $5.

KOP: I saw that.  Thank you very much.

GT: No problem.

KOP: But none of it goes to me, all of the proceeds go to charity.  I just recently got my first monthly money from it and I gave that, and you can go look on my twitter, to the Marine’s Toys for Tots foundation.  All of the money.  Now, if I was inherently evil, why would I donate all money and proceeds that is for a good cause?  Like giving kids toys for Christmas.

GT: There’s all sorts of, like, Republicans who are closing abortion clinics who donate tons to charity, who think that they’re like the nicest laughing Colonel Sanders looking old men you could ever meet.  They’re still fucking evil.  And if it took getting them off the fucking face of the earth to reopen those clinics, I would say yes, do it.  It’s the same for you.  I like you, but I mean, if you’re going to be advocating this bullshit…  Like, these people in your chat are the scum of the earth.  And you don’t seem to care, so I mean…

KOP: Well, I’ll explain why I don’t care after you’re done, but go ahead.

GT: But yeah, you understand my answer, right?

KOP:  I think so.  But now, you asked why I don’t seem to care about my chat.  And the reason why, and I’m not going to sugar coat this – the reason why I don’t care is that everybody has their own opinions and they’re entitled to it, and as long as it’s not something that is warranting distress, i.e. like a real death threat that will most likely happen, or doxing or harassment of any sort that is very dangerous or obviously legitimate, then it does not bother me.  Now, I have recently gone through a lot of shit from the gamergate community, and I brought it upon myself, to be honest…

GT: No, you fucking didn’t.  You didn’t.

Sargon: Yeah, he did.

KOP: No, I really did.  I really did, there’s no getting around that, and I own up to those things.  The difference is, I’m an adult and I have to accept the responsibilities of my actions.  I cannot just blame the others for the responsibilities of what happens to me, it doesn’t work that way, and society can’t do that.  And as adults, as you and myself, uh, Sargon here, we have responsibilities that we have to own up to and subject ourselves to regularly.  So, um, in that aspect, I really… that’s why I don’t care about my chat for the most part, is that things happen and shit comes around, but if you are inherently a part of the reason why, at least try to understand and subject yourself to what is going on on that side and get both sides of the story to come up with a basis that makes it right or wrong.  I think we lost Sargon here.  You still there?   Hello, Geordie?

GT: I’m here.

KOP: Okay, we did lose Sargon.  Um, in that aspect, that’s how it is.  So, I did get a lot of shit, and I did get doxed and harassed and death threats from people who were using the gamergate hashtag at that time…

GT: and now you’re fucking apologizing to them?

KOP: I’m not done.  But.  But.  It was not the majority.  It was only a few (unintelligible) voices, and it was apparent it was only a few voices.  But does that make it… does that mean that all of gamergate adheres to that logic that they condone harassment?  And that they are for death threats and misogyny and stuff like that?  No, it doesn’t.

GT: Yeah, it does.

KOP: No, it only goes to individuals, the select few that did it.  It does not go to gamergate as a whole, and even then, so…

GT: Hold on a second.  Hold on a second.  Um, say, I’m not sure how many people consider themselves part of gamergate…. It’s quite a few, isn’t it?  It’s like 50,000 or something like that.  Not sure.

KOP: It’s a high number, sure.

GT: It’s pretty high.  How many people were screwing with you?  Six, seven people, or more?  I’m not sure.

KOP:  Uh, it depends.  I would say, maybe probably about 100 at the most.

GT: Okay.  So only 100.

KOP: About 100 to 200.  Around there.

GT: Okay, around 100 to 200 people, and only 100 to 200 people bothered to, uh, fuck with you.  That doesn’t mean that only 100 to 200 people in gamergate are assholes.  It means that those people decided to fuck with you.

KOP: Right.  They’re individuals.

GT: Uh… They’re part of gamergate.

KOP: No.

GT: Yes.

KOP: No.  No, no, no, they’re using a hashtag to do it, that’s different.

GT: So they were part of gamergate.

KOP: No, that doesn’t mean they’re part of it.  It’s not a movement, it’s not an organization, it’s a consumer revolt.  You can just use a hashtag yourself and do it.  It doesn’t take more than 2 seconds to go do it.  I could do it now, you could do it now. It doesn’t mean that they are, it just comes from those people.  Some of them were anonymous, but the majority of them, which, like you said yourself, 50,000 or so, do not speak for the minority.  A loud vocal group is not what it is, and I took my lickings, if you will, and it was very extreme to the point where I had a mental breakdown, but… But…

GT: I can’t believe what I’m hearing.

KOP: No, I’m telling you how it works.  But as a responsible adult and things that happened, things happened, and you have to deal through that, but is it worth it to slander the entire majority vs. a minority of vocal loud people with a megaphone.  No.  No, it is not. It doesn’t work that way.

GT: Sargon just said you brought it on yourself.

KOP: Right, and I did, and I said that, but it doesn’t make it… what I’m saying is that the majority, all of gamergate, did not do it.  A minority did.  So, what I’m saying is that just because a few bad eggs say things bad that can make you think that gamergate is inherently evil, does not mean all of gamergate is inherently evil, it just means the individuals.  That as adults, we have to take responsibility that are given to us for the actions we received.

GT: Let me ask you a question.

KOP: Yes.

GT: I’m sort of hearing from you that some people were really hitting you hard…

KOP: Yes

GT: …but you believe they were justified because…

KOP: No.

GT: They weren’t?

KOP: No, what I’m trying to give you an example of is that a minority of loud megaphones do not justify all of gamergate.  You say that all of gamergate is inherently evil because they are misogynist and they hate women and they harass people and all that kind of stuff, correct?

GT: I mean, more or less, yeah.

KOP: Right, more or less, and I’m telling you as a real example that it is a small minority, not all gamergate that use the hashtag to do these things, but aren’t about what gamergate stands for or what the consumer revolt is.

GT: Oh, they really are against what gamergate stands for, or they’re not about it?  Well, where were the other 49,800 people stopping them?  They were fucking nowhere.

KOP: It’s not their job to stop them.

GT: You…. Are you fucking kidding me, Pol?  Like, if I was there, I would’ve tried to stop them if they were making you have a mental breakdown…

KOP:  And, no, and that’s a nice gesture, Geordie, but it’s not their job to stop them.

GT: Yes it is, to be a decent human being.  Yes, it is their fucking job.

KOP: Even then, gamergate does have a majority, they have a group called the Harassment Patrol that do do that.

GT: Yeah, well, where were they?

KOP: I don’t know.  I can’t tell you.

GT: Yeah, because they didn’t give a fuck, Pol, this is… this is fucking disgusting, this just reinforces my belief that they should just take everyone in gamergate and just launch them into the sun.  The world will be better for it.

Transcript will resume tomorrow at the point where Sargon returns.  Seems I forgot that Oliver didn’t show up until the 3rd hour.

Geordie Tait Interview Transcribed – Pt 4

Disclaimer: I am offering, without commentary, the transcript of the Geordie Tait interview as a service to the Gamergate community and is not intended for commercial use.  As it is rather long, I will be posting it in installments.  I have faithfully transcribed the conversation to the best of my abilities and will attempt to complete the transcription so that the information is available in a timely manner.  The opinions and statements made by individuals within reflect their own opinions and ideas and are not reflective of Cirsova or any other individuals.  The transcription begins with Geordie Tait’s arrival on the stream and will end shortly after his departure.  The full audio interview can be found here.

KOP: There he is.  Did you finally get your tea, man?

Sargon of Akkad: Hello.  Yeah, no, I was actually having a bacon sandwich for breakfast.

KOP: Motherfucker… Alright, bro.  So, we’ve got Sargon in here now.  Geordie, I want to throw in this topic here.  Now, I asked you this before, and you were talking about Anita Sarkeesian, and you said that you write radical feminist articles, would you still say that now?

GT: Yeah.

KOP: Okay, and I asked you why it seemed that the portrayal of white men in society was a bad thing, or men in general, and we kind of went into the history of men in that aspect.  With gamergate, do you believe the saying that the majority of gamergate or all of gamergate is white cis men?

GT: No, they’re not, I know they’re not, but they, like…  Gamergate does act as a group and they have centralized places where they organize the things that they’re going to do and so on, right?  Is that true?

KOP: It’s not really organized, it’s more of a revolt.  I mean, everyone kind of can join in and do whatever they want with it, which is what we’ve seen thus far.

GT: Did… would you say that there are certain things that all gamergate people have in common in terms of their ideology?

KOP: Uh, I can’t speak for all gamergate, but I’d say that the majority if that was the case would say they’re for against video game journalists… journalistic ethics being proper, and they would want a proper… I’m sorry.  Video game journalism ethics should not be about collusion or corruption or nepotism and that there should be proper journalistic ethics and integrity when it comes to things, and that we… the… I would say that the majority of gamers that use the gamergate hashtag are tired of these very pseudo-political ideologues that are pushed onto them, and the fact that the majority of them are probably angry that 10 articles came out August 28th saying that “gamers are dead, gamers are over, the identity of gamer itself needs to go and die” and ridiculed those people and mocked the people that read their articles.

GT: Okay, I mean, I’ve got certain problems with that…

KOP: Okay.

GT: …we would, we’re going to get into an argument about…

KOP: Well, I don’t think we’re going to argue, we’re just going to debate it like we are now.  I don’t know.

GT: Okay, well, this… Okay, so all of that… I have seen that.  And there is a lot of tangential stuff that I have seen that is just really repugnant that a lot of gamergaters have in common.  I mean, you can deny it if you want, uh, and I believe that the women are portrayed…  and the acceptance of it… and the refusal to engage in conversations about the inappropriateness of aspects of it because they believe that it is a political… something that they don’t want to discuss.  That general feeling is really negative, and you know I believe that the plight of women is the new moral exemplar.  You know, you can name them.  It’s like, you know, betrayal and death of Christ, World Trade Center, Holocaust, Plight of Women.  But people look at that and they say “Plight of Women? That doesn’t even belong on the list.”  I will tell you, I think that it is actually worse than all of the other three combined and really not even particularly close.  So, you know, that’s why I say I want gamergate gone.  Dead.  Disbanded.

KOP: Okay, now let me ask you this.  Um, I’m going to read something that you wrote, and then I’m going to ask you if you think this sounds hypocritical, okay?

GT: Okay.

KOP: You said “I assume you have had some problem with something I said on twitter about gamergate.  Well, guess what? Fuck gamergate, every worthless piece of shit in it, yes the women too, yes the minorities too.  I’d say the same about women and minorities who join the KGB or the Nazis.”  Now, you say you’re for women, but you’re wanting to burn anybody who’s a minority or a woman as well because they use the hashtag.

GT: I mean the same way…  To use this labored comparison again, you know, I would do it the same way that you would immediately shoot a traitor who was like giving the Nazis information about your sacred escape route from Birkenau.  I mean, you know like, these are, these are basically, y’know, traitors that are making the world worse for every woman in it.

KOP: Okay.

GT: Every future woman, so yes, I don’t care.

KOP: Okay.  Okay, fair enough.  Alright.  I’ll let… Sargon’s here now, and I know Sargon has some questions and I know that Sargon has some questions and I’ll let you guys go in.  Once again I’ll say this, I will moderate what happens between you, what you have to say, what Sargon has to say, if anybody gets too heated or interrupted, or interrupts too much, I will have to interject to stop that.  So, is everyone okay with that?

GT: Okay.  Sure thing.

Sargon: Works for me.

KOP: Alright, go ahead, Sargon.

Sargon: Okay, um.  I’m not really sure how to phrase this, but… If I were to ask you “Are you part of a cult?” what would your answer be.

GT: No.

Sargon: Right.  Do you know what the only right answer to that question is?

GT: I’m not sure what you mean.

Sargon: The word “no” when you ask if you’re part of a cult is the wrong answer.

GT: How so?

Sargon: Because if someone was saying to you you were a part of a cult, the only right answer is “Why would you think that?”  Because obviously someone who is part of a cult would say no.

GT: No, but I don’t…  I have no reason to think “Why would you think that?” cuz I know why.  Cuz you guys are a bunch of stupid assholes.

Sargon: Right.  Okay.  But this is my point: a lot of people really think that this sort of deification of women is kind of cult-like, and instead of addressing why people think it might be a bit cultish, you just flat deny “no, we’re not a cult” even though that’s the sort of thing that someone in a cult would say.

GT:: Uh, according to probably the most intellectually dishonest and stupid collection of people on earth.

Sargon: No, according to anyone.

GT: No, not according to anyone. That’s not true.

Sargon: No it is, I can send you a link.  It’s absolutely according to anyone.

KOP: Hold on, hold on, guys.

Sargon: According to the signs we use to indicate who is part of a cult or not, that’s the difference.  You can’t just say no.

GT: I have no idea what you’re talking about.  I mean, I don’t agree with you at all.

Sargon: That’s fine.

GT: I don’t acknowledge that that’s true.  I think you’re full of shit.  You got any other questions?

Sargon: Yeah, no, well, yeah, but…  Okay, no, that’s fine.  That’s…  The thing is, right, the way you’re responding is hyperdefensive about that.  If someone had said that to me, I would just say “what am I doing that makes you think that?”  But you’re doing all the things that would then reinforce that perception in other people.

GT: Hmmm…

Sargon: So, do you see why people would probably be looking at you thinking, y’know…

GT: Yes.  Because you are misogynist dirtbacks.  I already know the answer.

Sargon: No, no, do you know what I think?

GT: Okay, I don…

Sargon: Can you read my mind?

KOP: Hold on, hold on, stop, stop, time out, time out.  Time out.  Geordie, you’re saying that they’re misogynists because he asked you if you’re in a cult or not.

GT: *paaah*  Obviously not because of that.

KOP: Hold on, hold on, I’m just the moderator.  Can you explain why they would be misogynist for asking if you were in a cult or not and can you explain why you don’t agree with that.

GT: Sure.  Because it’s a stupid leading question that had its genesis in a bunch of really moronic tweets, and the idea that there’s only one way to answer that question is and that… and that social justice is a cult is utterly ridiculous.

KOP: Okay, Geordie, now if I can just interject here as the moderator…

GT: Go ahead.

KOP: …would you say if, um.  Would you say that if anybody were to question, let’s say, Anita Sarkeesian’s views, do they also deserve to “meet the gas chamber” as you put it?

GT: No.  Not necessarily.

KOP: What if they doubted it?

GT: It would depend on their motives for doubting it.

Sargon: But you don’t know their motives.

KOP: Hold on, Sargon.

GT: I can judge their motives.

KOP: Whoa, hold on.  But when you say “depend on their motives”, if they doubt it, is it just a simple yes or no, should they meet the gas chamber if they doubt Anita Sarkeesian’s views?

GT: It’s not a simple yes or no, no, their motives have to be…

KOP: Would you say some people might, and some people won’t?

GT: Uh, no, because I don’t even know what you’re talking about.

KOP: I’m asking you, with Anita Sarkeesian’s views, if somebody doubted them, you said it’s not a yes or no question, so would you say that it depends what they view, whether or not they should “meet the gas chamber” as you put it in your other facebook post or not?

GT: I would judge whether or not they should ‘quote-unquote’, cuz you insist on using that, “meet the gas chamber”…

KOP: I’m just using it because it’s what you suggested for gamergaters, so…

GT: Yeah, sure, yeah, okay.

KOP: Okay.

GT: But I know that it’s kind of inflammatory, right, just to keep repeating that?  Anyway, um…

KOP: Okay, alright, anyway, so, continuing on, I think we’ve got the understanding of what you think on ‘cult’. Geordie, do you have any questions for Sargon before Sargon asks you the next question?

GT: Well, I haven’t answered your question yet.  Let me just quickly finish.  Uh, I think that if someone were to ask me “What do you think of this person who disagrees with Anita Sarkeesian?” and at first I would say “Well, I don’t know anything about them, so let me look at some of their other tweets and the people they associate with and their previous behavior, previous articles they’ve written, statements they’ve made, so on and so forth.” And if I thought, from reading that or talking to the person that they were just a misogynist and like… even if they claimed, it’s, um… they don’t like Anita Sarkeesian because they think that she’s, y’know, was given too much money, and just, y’know, not worth the $100k, they’re jealous or whatever, or they’re just a misogynist.  Any of those reasons?  They’re just, y’know, a force of evil.  And for that reason, if they died, I would not care.  Y’know, good.

KOP: So, Geordie, just to follow this up, to wrap this up, would you say that basically the anti-gamergate side’s ends or goals that you guys have would justify whatever means necessary to basically make that – the politically correct term – against gamergate?

GT: Uh, no, I wouldn’t say that.  I don’t think I’m like other anti-gamergaters at all.

KOP: Okay.

GT: I can’t really speak.. I wouldn’t want to speak for them because I know I say things that are a lot more extreme than the things that they would say.  But I would have no… I would literally have no problem if all these fucking, y’know, Republican fucking d-bags…

KOP: Okay.

GT: …would just vanish of the face of the fucking earth.

KOP: Okay, I think we got an understanding from there.  Alright Sargon, you have another question Sargon? Go ahead.

Sargon: Well, yeah, I want to know how you know what their motives are?

GT: By reading what they’ve written.  And seeing who they associate with and what those people have said to them.  So on and so forth.

Sargon: Is your motive to start another Holocaust?

GT: Obviously not.

Sargon:  I’ve read what you’ve written.

GT: but it would be totally…

KOP: whoa, whoa, whoa…

Sargon: Let me finish.

GT: Okay

Sargon: I’ve read what you’ve written, and that’s essentially what you’re saying.  So it would be unfair for me to assume…

GT: It’s not even close.

Sargon: …your motive is.  Shut up, right?

KOP: Whoa.

Sargon: It would be unfair for me to say that your motive would be genocide because you’ve written this really hyper emotional “I hate gamers” post.  So, for you to then go round and say “I know that he’s a misogynist because of the way I interpreted what he wrote”, that’s… do you see why that’s a double standard?

GT: You… Like…  My head hurts from the stupidity.  It’s not even close to the same thing at all.  Even if I did manage to shove everyone in gamergate into a gas chamber, they’re not, like… the Jews were innocent.  That’s why it was such a tragedy.  People in gamergate are scumbags.  It’s a huge difference.

KOP: Okay, so you would say that Gamergate is not innocent and that the Jews were and…(unintelligible)

GT: It’s like a house landing on the wicked witch of the west.

Sargon: Do you know what a principle is?

GT: uh… it has multiple meanings.

Sargon: Okay, could you give me any of them?

GT: Headmaster?

Sargon: Uh… okay.  A principle as in, um, a method of action or a method of reason.  The principle of something, rather than…

GT: I mean, I know what you mean.  That definition seems…  I can’t really think of the exact definition but I do know what the word means and what you’re talking about.

Sargon: Yeah, so, this is… but a principle is… I’m just going to quickly look it up: “A guiding sense of the requirements and obligations of right conduct”, right?


Sargon: That’s a dictionary definition of the word ‘principle’.

GT: Okay.

Sargon: Do you know how that applies… do you know why I’m asking you about principles right now?

GT: Uh… It’s a leading question as usual so you can try to…

Sargon: Well, it’s actually directly related to what you have literally just said.  You think that the Holocaust was bad because it happened to Jews and, as far as you’re concerned, Jews have done nothing wrong.  I don’t know either way, I’m just saying what you’ve said.  And then, but, you are happy to apply the principle of genocide to gamers, because, in your mind, gamers have done something wrong.

GT: No, I think assholes have done something wrong.

Sargon: Whatever.  Whoever.  The people who are supporting gamergate, whatever you want to call them, you say they have done something wrong…

GT: Yeah.

Sargon: …and therefore you think they deserve gas chambers. Right.

GT: Or whatever method (unintelligible)…

Sargon: …but that is the same principle the Nazis were operating under.  You’re just changing the noun.  You know, you’re changing Jews to Gamers or whatever you want to call them, but the principle of pushing people into gas chambers is what’s wrong.  Do you understand?

GT: Nah.  I don’t think so.  I mean, what’s wrong is that they were innocent and they were pushed into gas chambers.

Sargon: No, it’s what’s wrong is that they were pushed into gas chambers, regardless, for being Jews.  That’s the thing that’s wrong.

GT: Yeah, that is wrong.

Sargon: Right.  And so you’re saying you want push, I don’t know, gamergaters, or whatever you want to call them, into gas chambers for being gamers.

GT: No, for being fucking assholes, misogynist pricks.  Right wing dickheads, fucking guntoting dingleberries.

Sargon: So you think they deserve it for being right wing?

GT: I think they deserve it for being an actual damaging force in multiple countries and societies in the world over that are sabotaging women, have been for years.  I’m finished with them.  I’m totally finished.

Sargon: Do you know…

KOP: Hold on, Sargon.

Sargon: …that the Germans said exactly the same thing about the Jews in Germany?

GT: They were wrong.

Sargon: Yeah, but… that makes you wrong.

GT: I’m not fucking wrong, I’m absolutely right.

KOP: Hey, hey, hey, timeout, timeout, everybody cool it for a second.  Alright, let people speak between it, and then go on from there.  Go ahead.  Go ahead, Geordie.

GT: Well, I don’t know, what do you want me to say?  I was listening to him.

KOP: Okay, go ahead, Sargon, finish what you had to say.

Sargon: Yeah, um.  Look, you… I… I…  I’m amazed you think it’s okay to say the things that you’ve said when you’re also complaining about the Holocaust and the Jews.  It’s… you’re arguing for the same principle.  This is what I mean.  You don’t seem to understand what a principle is and how it’s applied to both sides of a story.

GT: No, I don’t…

Sargon: I know you don’t.

GT: I have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about.

Sargon: I know, and that’s the problem.

GT: no, it’s not a problem.

Sargon: No, no, it is, it’s everyone’s problem with social justice as a general rule.  No, no, I’m telling you it is, right, (unintelligible)

GT: Well, I don’t care what you’re selling me.

KOP: Whoa, whoa, hey, easy. Just listen, Geordie, then you can respond.

Sargon: But that’s your personal opinion, and that only matters to you, where everyone else, their opinion is ‘wow, this guy is kind of in favor of what would, in principle, be a Holocaust,’ so why would anyone not have a problem with the things you say?

GT: What is that supposed to mean?  There’s nothing wrong with that.

Sargon: (unintelligible)

KOP: Hold on, I’ll come in as the moderator.  What he’s trying to say is as a principle, he means you’re advocating… you’re advocating the same things with the same type of belief system, just using gamergate and not Jews ,and not using… and just using not Nazis but anti-gamergate, for gassing all gamergaters, whether, it’s…, they’re innocent or not.  It doesn’t make it right.  Two wrongs don’t make a right, and you’re advocating that and that means you’re following the same guidelines and same principles as, say, Adolf Hitler did and the Nazis did.

GT: No.  Well, I mean, I couldn’t disagree more about pretty much everything he said.  The key difference for me is that the Jews were utterly innocent and at the mercy of monsters, terrible people, and I think that really, uh, gamergate is no different than the KKK or the Nazis themselves and I would have no problem just shoveling them off a cliff, no problem at all.

KOP: Okay, alright.  I think we established that.

Transcript will resume with more questions from Sargon and the arrival of Oliver from the NotYourShield project.

Geordie Tait Interview Transcribed – Pt 3

Disclaimer: I am offering, without commentary, the transcript of the Geordie Tait interview as a service to the Gamergate community and is not intended for commercial use.  As it is rather long, I will be posting it in installments.  I have faithfully transcribed the conversation to the best of my abilities and will attempt to complete the transcription so that the information is available in a timely manner.  The opinions and statements made by individuals within reflect their own opinions and ideas and are not reflective of Cirsova or any other individuals.  The transcription begins with Geordie Tait’s arrival on the stream and will end shortly after his departure.  The full audio interview can be found here.

[break in transcript]

KOP: Alright, I am back.  Sorry, I had to get a refill and use the restroom.

GT: Welcome back.

KOP: Just let everybody clear the air for a little bit.  For everybody just joining in, we are talking with Geordie Tait, the writer.  He is a freelance writer as of now, but he was a writer for StarCityGames.  And stuff like that.  We’re just discussing his messages, what he had to say and his stance in gamergate thus far.  We have also Socks here, you guys know who she is, I do the daily news with her.  Now Socks, go ahead and ask a few more questions.  Geordie, if you have any questions you want to ask us in response to this, while she’s still here, you’re more than welcome to.  I will say this, though, I will moderate what is being said, so if it gets too heated, I will interrupt.  Is that okay?

GT: That’s fine with me.

KOP: Okay.  Alright, so go ahead, Socks.  I think she’s still away actually.

GT: Okay, well, um.  I’m sure she’ll be back soon.

KOP: She’ll be back.  If you have any questions for me, you’re more than welcome to.

GT: I just have general comment about the tenor of this interview.  Um, we’re kind of hamstrung by the fact that we have really fundamental disagreements about…

KOP: Right…

GT: about certain things.

KOP: Understandable.

GT: Um, you know, I’m not going get… you have…  I can tell that you are a skilled rhetor.

KOP: A what?

GT: Rhetor, as in rhetoric.

KOP: Oh, okay.

GT: Orator. Um.  And you probably are great at steering people away from the things that they believe and toward what you believe, but I mean, even if I can’t articulate perfectly, even if I don’t have examples at hand, I have closely examined my convictions and the reasons for them, and I have made my decision.

KOP: Oh, that’s fine.  I want you to understand, this is an interview, this isn’t an intervention. No one here… the difference is, you’re talking with, basically, the pro-gamergate side as a whole, and you coming in as anti-gamergate, and I’m feeling that I’m being very fair and understanding on your side, I’m asking the proper questions and we’re discussing it openly, but I want to show you, at least on this point, if I can interject, that gamergate… you may think that gamergate is evil or inherently evil and that the people need to be gassed or genocidally taken out instrumentally/indiscriminately(?).  Here you are now, and we’re having a proper discussion, in my feel, on a platform so we can discuss this openly and we can get both sides of the story.  Do you see the same thing with that, or is that different for you?

GT: I have no complaints with how the interview has gone thus far.  I feel like I could have done a better job on some points, but overall I think it’s gone well.

KOP: Okay.  As long as you feel that I’m being fair, that is all I had to say.

GT: I mean, you disagree with me on points, but you’re being fair.

KOP: Okay, fair enough, fair enough.

Socks: I’m back.

KOP: Okay, Socks is back here, guys.  Now, Socks, I’m going to let you ask a few more questions and I’ll have you drop out so we can bring in Sargon.  I will moderating this, so if any of you guys get too heated or stuff, I will interject…

Socks: Absolutely.

KOP: to reestablish the point or on topic.  Allright, so go ahead, and if you have any questions, Geordie, with her as she asks you things, after you answer questions, you’re more than welcome to ask. So, go ahead, Socks.

Socks: Alright.  Um.  I did want to bring this back for a moment to Anita Sarkeesian and Feminist Criticism in video games.  I am a writer and a humorist.  I believe that the representation of women in video games is terrible.  I think we can both agree on that, yes?

GT: Yep.

Socks: Okay, my main criticism is that – well not my main criticism, I guess – but what I put forward to you is do you think that a good way of helping progress the portrayal of women in video games would be to hire actual writers who actually write a proper story?  Because, I think a lot of us, I mean, I’ve said this before, and a lot of people in gamergate agree with me, that the representation of women is shit, out of the gate, I won’t deny it, and that a good way to go about solving it would be to hire better writers.   Do you agree with that?

GT: I agree.  Can I make a quick comment?

Socks: yes.

GT: Okay, uh, I have seen, I really think, when you give something really obvious to someone with the gamergate tag, like, you don’t think, you, what do you think of the, portrayal of women, I think they’re easily going to be able to say terrible.  But I don’t think that any of them think that it’s that important to fix it.  Fix that?  And I don’t really think that… maybe the women feel that way, I don’t know.  I just think that… and here’s another thing that’s related, I’ve been called a ‘white knight’ about a million times.  ‘White knight’ is just a statement that ignorant people make.  RE: feminism, like, it’s ridiculous.

KOP: What’s the point you’re trying to make?

GT: The point I’m trying to make is she just said that a lot of people in gamergate agree that the portrayal of women is bad, and it’s really been my experience that a lot of them don’t care, and, you know, don’t give a shit that the portrayal of women is bad and they were more the sort of people who would look at the response to that, you know, that Hitman Trailer with the nuns in it and they would say “Why were you complaining about that?  That trailer was awesome.  It’s just a bunch of complaining assholes white knighting, blah blah blah.”

KOP: Right, but…

GT: I think there’s tons of people like that in gamergate.

KOP: K, fair assessment.  What if I told you it’s because people weren’t looking at it in a pseudopolitical or ideological way, they were looking at it as a form of entertainment and art?

GT: Uh.  That’s what I mean when I say that they don’t think it’s important.

KOP: Well, it’s probably because its… and to most people, for most gamers, they would take video games, for them, as a form of art & entertainment, like if you went to go see a movie.  It is art & entertainment.  Or if you read a book, it is entertainment and art.  Sometimes books can be intellectual properties, if they need to be, if you’re reading something like that, if that’s your taste, just as much as there can be (unintelligible) in games, documentaries, there have been historical games as well.  It just depends on your taste.  Once again, that’s art and entertainment and what you’re attracted to.  I just want to say, it goes back to the same question I made before, which is what’s stopping, at least the anti-gamergate side, or let’s say as an example, Anita Sarkeesian, as you will, from making the game that portays women in the right aspect instead of critiquing the free market, if you will, that has been around since… a long time, now, I would say for the most part.

GT: Okay.  I think the main problem with that is that it…  I would like more people to be political thinkers, um, and not just, vanish into a wasteland of only caring about the artistic side.  I think that too many people do that.  I think it’s an excuse that they make.  I think it’s the worst kind of, y’know, anti-intellectual garbage, just, to listen to someone say “That trailer is sexist” and then, y’know, look over at them and say “Can’t you just enjoy it? Fucking shut up”.

KOP: Okay, if I can interject.  Then if that’s the case, then why not make games that are educational to the subject at hand?  And not say that because, let’s say Bayonetta 2, “She’s so sexy, but she’s also a witch who can do magic who’s fighting figuratively fictitious ant-creatures and monsters that don’t exist in our world in a world that does not adhere to our world at all.”  You get what I’m saying?  That’s entertainment, but if you’re looking for what you’re talking about, Geordie, that’s still falls back to if that is what you want and you’re looking for, then why not make an educational game based off that so people understand it better?

GT: I’ll tell you why.  Because educational games suck.  You want an exciting action game like the best ones in our industry but you want it to contain, like, the correct message, and not just be vacant and stupid.

KOP: Fair enough.

Socks: That’s… that feeds back into hiring better writers and better staff.

GT: Yep.

Socks: Instead of treating the writing and the story aspect…  The reason why – this is what a lot of people do not understand – the reason why video games and blockbuster films are so filled with tropes is because they do not spend a lot of money and a lot of time on the actual dialogue, the writing and the story.  Now, that’s the problem.  That’s the big pervasive problem. It’s a lot cheaper to just take one of the archetypal stories, fill it with tropes – and tropes are tropes for a reason –  it’s because – and clichés are clichés for a reason – it’s because they’re instantly recognizable and relatable to Joe Shmoe, right?

GT: Yep.

Socks: That is exactly why you as writer should understand this.  This is exactly why they’re there.  You can make just, like, y’know, this wooden box hero and they can be instantly relatable to the viewer and engage them.  And that’s what it’s for, right?  Now…

GT: Can I make a quick comment?  I’ll try to be really fast and you can go back to what you were saying.

Socks: Go ahead.

GT: Okay, so, I definitely agree with a lot of what you were saying.  I think that, uh, it’s not a big problem – it’s not a problem to just hand everything to your artists and make, you know, your designers, and all of your programmers, if you are not, I don’t know, tackling subject matter that requires you to be politically aware, but if you have like a female main character anywhere or a female character anywhere, you’ve got to think about it in the same way that you would think about having an African American character.  Or you know, someone of any ethnicity.  You’ve gotta be sensitive to the current needs of that culture and write the character accordingly, and I think that they do that with minorities now.  But they don’t, and never do it, with women now, and they just exploit them.  Anyway, go ahead.

Socks:  I also… that comment feeds me back to the other point where… I don’t know if you can tell, but I’m not American.  I’m Australian.

GT: Okay.

Socks: Yeah.  Uh, and I’ve been playing video games since I was, what, 4?  I’m 29 now, so I’ve been playing video games for 25 years.  Um, and I know a lot of people in other parts of the world… gaming is global, is what I’m trying to say.  It is very popular in asia and Europe and a lot of the political –sociopolitical – issues you’re referring to are American-centric.  And that kind of Americentric attitude and view –which I get, because you’re obviously America – that kind of irritates the international gaming community to the point where it’s not really relatable to us.  Those struggles, those things are not relevant  to our societies.  Do you understand what I’m saying there?  Criticism of Bayonetta 2 from western, uh, critics, I guess?  Is a little unfair.  It’s not made by Americans, it’s not made by white people, it was made by a bunch of Japanese women and men.  It’s completely irrelevant to the American culture.

GT: No it’s not irrelevant, no it’s not, they’re selling it in America that has these concerns.  If the Japanese…

Socks: Yeah, they’re marketing it…

GT: If the Japanese put someone in the game and, you know, his name was Darkie, you wouldn’t say ‘It’s irrelevant, don’t worry about it’, they’ve gotta worry about what is in their fucking game.  And like, if they put an Australian person in the game who was fuckin the most stereotypical, y’know, “spoits, noice, roights,” Crocodile Dundee asshole you could think of…

Socks: But they do all the time…

GT: you’d probably be upset about that too.  Well, they shouldn’t.

Socks: I know, this is stupid, I don’t care.  I mean, that’s ridiculous, that’s a caricature and that’s no problem with me.  I mean, but that’s just me personally, but…  Anyway, I will drop out, unless you have any questions you want to ask me, that’s cool.

GT: Well, can I just say, I don’t think… I don’t have any problem with you not having a problem with a caricature of an Australian person because there’s not really historical, y’know, oppression that they’re likely to offend.  But if the…

Socks: I’m not a white Australian either, so, I come from a mixed ethnic background.  My country is very…  Multicultural.  I’m an ethnic minority here.  I would be moderately offended at some other things, but…

GT: Yep.

Socks: …that’s different.  Anyway, I will drop out.

KOP: Okay, Socks, I’ll talk to you later.  Thanks for coming in.

Socks: Yep, thank you.

GT: Goodbye.

KOP: I’m going to grab Sargon here, and I guess we’ll continue on from there.

GT: Alright.

KOP: I think he stepped away to grab his tea.

GT: (laughs) Someone just posted crocodile Dundee.

KOP: Yeah, I just saw that. (laughs)  If he will come back…  I think he might have gone to grab his tea; he said his kettle was going off.  He’s british by the way.

The transcript will resume when Sargon arrives on the stream.  Today’s posts represent the first hour of the audio.  I will try to get as much as I can of the second hour posted tomorrow.